Lee Daniels wants to do it all. The filmmaker behind Monster’s Ball, Precious, and The Butler has made an endlessly compelling horror movie, The Deliverance, for Netflix, starring Andra Day, Glenn Close, Mo’Nique, and Aunjanue Ellis-Taylor. The Film Stage chatted with Daniels about his new film, never wanting to do the same thing twice, loving filming in Pittsburgh, selling out a bit, being convinced white people will not get the Glenn Close performance, and changing the media landscape with Empire.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
The Film Stage: So I have to tell you: I live in Pittsburgh.
Lee Daniels: Currently live in Pittsburgh?
Yeah.
Were you there when we were shooting?
I’ve been here since 2018, so I was definitely here when you were.
Where in Pittsburgh?
I live south of the city. Where did you shoot?
All around. [South of the city] is familiar. We shot exteriors there… listen, we shot this movie two-and-a-half years ago it feels like. I spent two years in the edit. So I don’t remember all the names of the towns. But I’m telling you, man: I’m coming back there because I thought it was incredible and I thought that the crew was [great]. I don’t want to come there in the winter because it’s just unbearable… on-another-level unbearable. And I can deal with unbearable because I’m from Philly, but that shit is on another motherfucking level. I can’t, I won’t. Everybody’s talking about Atlanta because, you know, but it’s not. The Pittsburgh people were very anxious and were over-accommodating to me. And we get the same tax credit so I’m very excited about doing my next thing there.
Were there any specific highlights? What was a weird, fun thing in Pittsburgh?
Yes, there was a walk that I took every day to just sort of just chill. And it was beautiful. It was downtown by the water and there were ducks just walking. It just didn’t make sense because it was in the middle of downtown. It was this sort of serene, sort of quiet walk with ducks walking… a couple of bridges. That walk with the ducks every day was very powerful for me.
Well, you’re from Philly, so it’s a nice vote of love from the other side of the state, you know.
And I’d never been to Pittsburgh before. I thought for some reason Pittsburgh was like Philadelphia and it’s not. They don’t even talk like Philadelphians! It was great. It was so far away from Philly. I was going to shoot in Philadelphia. It’s where I wanted to shoot because I’m from Philly. But we couldn’t get that tax benefit. And so Dawn [Keezer, Executive Director of the Pittsburgh Film Office], who’s a friend of mine now, really gave me an incredible deal that I couldn’t turn away from. I made the story work for Pittsburgh. I also wanted to separate [from the true story]. (The Deliverance is inspired by the real-life “Ammons haunting case”.)
They wanted me to go down there [to Indiana], and I was like, no. I met with LaToya [Ammons] on the phone twice, but I wanted to do my own interpretation of it. I believe it happened. I mean, I saw the documentary (Demon House); I’ve seen all of our interviews; I read the court documents. So if a judge and social workers and police and principals are telling you this shit actually happened, everybody can’t be lying. And because of that, I wanted to make sure that I was telling it from a different perspective. It was too spooky to tell it honestly. So I veered off with a biracial girl and what that world is like having a white mother. And what that white woman was like immersed into Black culture. That was something that I understood and I don’t know whether a lot of white people will, but I know a lot of Black people know this woman, Alberta.
The Glenn Close character, yeah. I’ve been rewatching a lot of your stuff, and you’ve been doing this a long time. I want to try to touch on as much as we can. But with The Deliverance you’re doing a horror movie more than ever before, and I was fascinated by how well your style fits with that genre. You’re always doing so much in your movies, and I’m fascinated to talk with you about it. It feels like the world has caught up with your style and point of view a little bit. When you make your movies, especially as director, you’re throwing a lot into the pot, right? There’s a lot of tonal things that are happening, and I find it endlessly fascinating. And I think, with the horror genre, you can kind of do that and “get away” with a lot of shifts in the movie. As you’re writing, developing, directing, did you find there was an ease to that? The horror-ness?
It was so hard. It was really hard. One of the reasons I did it was I wanted to check a box. I don’t like staying in the same lane just as a creative. When I got into television, I really just wanted to be able to answer to suits. I wanted to know what that experience was like. All of my friends, they get notes and shit. And I’m like, “What is that like?!” You know what I mean? Because every film of mine had been independent. All of my shit is independent. You know, my first movie was developed with drug money. Monster’s Ball. We won the first Black woman an Oscar. Every one of my films has been independently financed where I’m able to…
Do your thing.
Do my thing and nobody is in my head. There’s so many filmmakers and writers that I respect that have to answer to people. So I only did Empire just so I could see what that experience was like.
What was it like?
Horrible. Absolutely the worst experience. Horrible! But guess what? Fucking that money, money, money! I was able to put my kids through college and shit. So that in itself was worth it. But getting back to [The Deliverance], I have final cut at Netflix because otherwise I wasn’t interested in doing the film. But they wanted––“they” meaning Netflix––wanted jump scares every second. And I did not know how to do that. And I said, “Listen, man, I can’t do this. I don’t know how… it does not compute.” My favorite movies were The Exorcist and Rosemary’s Baby and The Omen.
You’re cultivating dread.
Yes, and also, deep, deep, deep into character and into what’s happening into spaces of character that I know and can connect to so that when the shit goes to the left, we’re invested. But with this it was really hard. I have to look at the movie tonight again. I haven’t looked at it in a while, but I’m going to the premiere tonight. I hope I achieved it because Netflix kept saying tension, tension, tension, tension. And I didn’t really want tension. The tension is whether or not Ebony was going to beat them kids. That, to me, is the tension, not that shit that is going on in the house. I gave up a little bit and just said, “Okay, let me just give them what they want a little bit because it’s a Lee Daniels film, but it’s also a Netflix film.” I sold out a little bit because we’re not in the world of cinema. We’re in the world of clicks where, if they’re not invested in the first five or ten minutes, they’ll turn that shit off.
Sure.
So I’m trying to play ball with them and I’m not. We’ll see.
Watching The Deliverance, I really find the work you’ve done in your career immensely interesting. Every movie I watch of yours, I’m just like, “This guy’s wild.” You know what I mean? In a positive way! There’s not a lot of artists who are doing that now. It’s a rare group and especially at a level––I know you’ve struggled to make all of your films––and there’s been big budgets and small budgets but there have been resources. The main film from your past I want to get to is Shadowboxer.
Can I tell you something? It’s the only film [of mine] that I know isn’t good. In my heart. Do you know what I mean? It was my first. But there was something budding I could see.
There’s so much love in that film though!
I haven’t seen it in over fifteen, seventeen years probably. But I know in my heart that when I finished it, I was like, “Okay, what is it?”
Can I tell you what I think it is?
Yes! Tell me, please.
It’s like if Douglas Sirk made an action movie.
[Laughs] My man, my man! That’s so good! Can I tell you something? That is the biggest motherfucking compliment I could have. I love you for it. Drop the mic, man!
There’s so much about your career that’s so interesting, but Shadowboxer is especially interesting. It’s an odd moment in your career, right? Because you were in casting and then you produce Monster’s Ball––like you said, it’s kind of an out-of-nowhere success.
Listen, as quiet as it’s kept, you know, I intended to direct that. I didn’t know how to direct it because I wasn’t sure coming from theater and I didn’t really know how to work a camera at all. But the actors all knew me from that, from theater, and so they signed on for me. I hired Marc Forster because he did a little short film and he knew that he knew how to work a camera. But it’s strongly influenced by me, if you look at it.
Well clearly. 25 years later, clearly so. When I was younger and I was really getting into film, one of the movies that blew my hair back––back when I still had hair––was The Woodsman.
Same thing. Same thing.
I rewatched it yesterday, and it’s a hard movie to watch, obviously, but it hit me again. How Kevin Bacon didn’t––and I get why he didn’t win an Oscar because it’s a tough subject, but…
He didn’t even get nominated!
It’s such an incredible performance. And that’s a Philly movie, speaking of. What do you remember from The Woodsman?
I remember, you know, again, another film that I wanted to direct. Not feeling secure about directing. Knowing that [Nicole Kassell]… and really wanting a woman to direct it is what I remember. It was important that we hire a woman. It was important that… [Samuel L. Jackson] was going to play the character but my mother was like, “If you hire a Black man to play this character, don’t come home.” So Sam didn’t speak to me for a while because I took the role from him and gave it to Kevin Bacon.
Bacon is perfect in it, though.
Are you kidding me? Bacon is perfect. Yeah, and I remember really getting the confidence from that film and really studying everything from key grips because I didn’t go to film school…I didn’t go to college. I was there for a year in college. That movie gave me the confidence [to direct]. I needed it. I didn’t understand why directors all hated me because I just pushed them out of the way and told them this is what I want. If a producer told me that I don’t know what I would do. [Laughs.] You know what I mean?!
That’s funny. So then the next year you make Shadowboxer?
And I remember afterwards, leaving the Toronto Film Festival and coming back to New York, where I was living, and looking at the front page of the New York Post. The front page! A picture of Helen and Cuba saying that it was the worst movie of the decade. And I was a little cocky because, listen, that first movie won the first Academy Award for a Black woman. The second movie at Cannes…
…they had a lot of acclaim.
Yeah, yeah. And I was a little cocky and I was really taking credit for it when it’s really not––even as a director––it’s not me. It’s everybody… and I was in a cocky space then so I looked at Shadowboxer and I said “Okay, that’s it. Let me figure out what I’m going to do next because it’s not going to be this world. I’m not directing anymore.” And I was devastated. I had convinced Vivienne Westwood to design her first movie because she designed all the clothing for it. And I convinced, begged, pleaded with Wong Kar-wai to give me his production designer, editor, and costume designer [William Chang].
I mean it does have that Wong Kar-wai look to it. So just to macro-lens it, right? That movie comes out, obviously Precious comes out a few years later. It explodes. Oscars are won. Sundance. The whole thing. And then I remember being young and just starting this website and being at Cannes at the Paperboy press screening…
Press or the premiere?
Definitely press.
I heard that they booed it at the press screening? This is where I get really fucking confused because Nicole Kidman and I sat through… all of us sat through probably one of the longest ovations that I ever received before. I left the theater crying and came back to my seat and they were still clapping. And then I read in the New York Times that they were booing me. And apparently it was the critics screening so, you know.
I remember––look, it was obviously a long time ago now––but I remember it being mixed walking out. But here’s my thing with The Paperboy all these many years later: there’s such a reappraisal of it.
Isn’t that crazy?
People love it!
Yeah, it’s crazy.
And what I love about a guy like you… you are creating these moments and images that I will never forget. I will never forget being at the Palais and watching Nicole Kidman pee on Zac Efron. You know what I mean? The John Cusack performance? I’ll think about that for the rest of my life. So when you make things like that––bringing it back to all of your movies––whether or not it works with people in the moment of its release, that clarity of decision-making, I think time is always friendly to it. And now you have this big platform with Netflix, this genre element with The Deliverance which I think helps… perhaps it can be something like The Butler, which was very successful.
With The Butler, my mother was like, “You are embarrassing us at church.” Before The Butler. She said, “I want you to make movies like Tyler Perry. Can you just make a Tyler Perry movie? He’s my favorite filmmaker.” I said, “I’m your son.” She said, “But I like Tyler Perry movies.” And so it fucked me up. It really fucked me up. And so for my mother and the church, I made The Butler, which I think was probably the most refrained I’ve ever been, ever.
But you’re still making these brave choices, casting choices. I guess what I’m saying is: it’s been fascinating to see the world get on your level as an artist, if that makes sense.
It makes a lot of sense. Let me tell you something: when we did Empire …I thank you for that compliment. I’ll take it. I’ll tell you why: because I didn’t understand what we were doing when I made Empire. I really didn’t. I was too busy about Cookie’s hat and the music hat I was trying to get to realize that I was shifting, literally, the culture. That I had single-handedly shifted it with my show. That there wouldn’t have been a Black Panther, that there wouldn’t have been an Insecure. There wouldn’t have been a Black-ish. All of that shit happened because I did what I did. I was bold enough to say I don’t give a fuck about these notes that they’re giving me. I’m going to fucking do what I want to do because I don’t need you. Do you know what I mean?
Exactly. Right. It’s refreshing to see you still pushing the envelope. To the point of what you brought up earlier––the Glenn Close performance. Great example. What’s your favorite pre-The Deliverance Glenn Close performance?
All of them. I mean, when you really study her work it’s intimidating. I told Glenn this today––we did Interview magazine and I told her this––that part of me, the fear I had with the film was doing something that was different for me, checking a box. And also, you know, I’m always trying to bring something different to the actors that I work with. Like, how can I lose them? And so for Glenn, when you really think of most of her work, it’s iconic. Even 101 Dalmatians. Dangerous Liaisons. Fatal Attraction. It’s like, wait a minute. What? She’s a sick fuck. I don’t think the critics will understand her. Not that I care. I don’t think white critics [will understand her], because they don’t know this chick. Like, you gotta know to know. Like niggas know her and love her and embrace her. Because she’s Black, right? She’s Black!
Culturally. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yes! And we’ve never seen her before. It was like Precious. We’d never seen it before.
I’m curious to see how it all plays out. There are so many great performances in your movies. The Andra Day of it all…
Whoa! Right?!
Well, even like, The United States vs. Billie Holiday sure. Of course, great nomination. The coolest thing about The Deliverance and when we bring up the Douglas Sirk thing ––
Oh, my God. Let me tell you something. That’s a compliment to me because I didn’t understand. I didn’t know who Douglas Sirk was until I knew who he was and was like, “Of course I’m obsessed with Douglas Sirk.” And so I was like, “He lives in me!”
And this is silly, but it’s almost like maximalist-minimalism right? Because Sirk was doing a lot of under-the-radar stuff with censorship, a lot of things had to be subdued, but there’s also so much costume and color and life. And big acting! And I think there’s a lot of that in your films but you can be a little bit more direct, which I think works well. And what I like about The Deliverance is, yes, this is a troubled woman (Andra Day). She’s trying to be a good mother. She has problems. But then there’s her otherness, right? Her being Black, her being in this tough situation. The tension of the movie is: if you lived in a house where there was a hole to hell, who would ever believe you, right?
It’s so true. Who would fucking believe her?!
The minute Mo’Nique comes in you’re like, “She’s so fucked.” But the greatest horror movies are often about other things, social things, preconceptions… there’s other things happening. And also Glenn Close having faith is so essential to that person. And Andra Day anchors it all.
With Billie Holiday, she had never done a movie before, so she just blindly trusted me. And I think that’s how I got that performance out of her. She would have jumped off the cliff for me. And I think that, for me, that’s what I do: the “Dance of the Seven Veils” with these actors, where I show them that I don’t have the fucking answer. I don’t have the answer. You better figure it out because I don’t know what I’m doing. I think I’m directing. You gotta figure it out with me, because we are in this together and we cannot fail. If that makes any sense at all. And they feel a sense of trust because they know that I don’t. I’m not: “I’m Mr. Director. You better listen to me.” You know? I mean, I’m like, “All right, bitch, I don’t know what the fuck I’m doing. We’re not going to fail. We’re going to figure this shit out.”
Let me ask you this because you have a background in casting. What do people not understand about casting?
I think that with one bad casting… that’s what was so terrifying about Billie Holiday––because she carried the film and I had A-listers that I turned down because I felt that she was just being [Billie Holiday]. So for me, you have to find an actor that doesn’t act.
That’s interesting.
I don’t like acting. I shy away from it completely. I recoil the minute that something rings false in any way. I think that when you’re just sort of being, I’m trying to capture that authenticity. John Cassavetes is someone that I’m really inspired by, too. I just think that he had it.
Is there a dream project you have? If money was no object, you would make it.
There is a superhero film that I am really excited about. It’s about a father and son. It’s a love affair. And the father has dementia. And it’s called Stealth. I mean, I’ll probably do it. I mean, I think so. I’d like to do a superhero film where it’s so grounded, where all of a sudden motherfuckers start flying and you go, “Wait, what?” I’d like to crack that genre. It’s so terrifying though, you know? Because what I’ve learned is that the visual effects can fuck a movie up. And I made some mistakes on The Deliverance where I think the visual effects were just, like, I didn’t understand. I had never worked with visual effects before, but I’m learning all the time, so I now know what not to do on my next one. And I’m excited about learning and the land of superheroes. Like, what is a superhero to me, you know? And what is that relationship like? It’s always about family. Wanting to see a father and son in love. Because I certainly didn’t love my father. And so really wanting to see a father and son and love and father dying and passing it on to the son up in the air. Literally, he passes on his superpowers as he’s flying, dying of dementia, and his son sort of takes over and takes off.
Well, that’s my time. Next time we’ll talk about Tennessee.
[Laughs.] Okay, wait, I just got to say. Tennessee: I was going to direct it, and they just came to me after Shadowboxer, and I just didn’t have the courage to direct it. But this woman believed in me…
Mariah Carey’s good in it!
Well, that’s because I directed every moment of her. But it was just, like, my vision versus the director’s vision. And it’s just a bad movie. It’s the one movie I never… Daniel, you got me talking about shit I never talk about. It’s a bad movie! I remember giving it to Mariah––screening it for her at her house ––and she was like this: [Lee shrugs, makes a face, laughs] And I tried to stitch it up, but it was just like… but this is the luck I have. The financier of that lost $8,000,000 and she said, “Lee, I believe so strongly in you, I’m double-downing on this.” And then she threw down another $8,000,000 for Precious.
Well, there you go. And Mariah is amazing in that. And next time we talk, we will figure out a way to get Paula Patton back in movies. Because she’s also great in Precious.
Thank you, brother. I really appreciate it.
The Deliverance is now on Netflix.
lee danielsThe Deliverance
Dan Mecca is the co-founder and managing editor of The Film Stage. He is a producer and filmmaker living in Pittsburgh. He watches a lot of movies and tracks them on Letterboxd.
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